Update about Vicpol Regional

[turbine_prop]

Having spent a night with senior Vicpol officers from both the communications Div ( providing portable comms ) and Dawson St TMU at a very well known and very popular regional motel in eastern Victoria where they were providing comms & traffic control for a large Australian bike ride I'm guessing that subaru had something to do with it by the number of subarus that I saw as scouts ect not to mention the amount of motor bikes with cams ect anyway after a couple of drinks with the officers in question who were more than happy to share ingotmreuion after I showed great interest in thier vehicles and they saw my vehicle and it's comms gear I can confirm the following changes are in the line for both Vicpol Vic wide as far as Solo units go, Metro units with MMR and Regional units on the VHF Network.

1st up all Solo units are about to get a dual band radio MMR/VHF radio that will be 1/2 the weight and 1/2 the size of the current 2 x radios combined thus saving space and weight on the bike.

All bikes will initially be fitted with a harness for VHF & UHF operation before moving to a single dual band antenna just like what is available for amateurs.

There is currently a special operation of field testing going on called operation Blue Tooth ( currently in the open ) that allows solo units to talk to to VKC via a blue tooth link back to the bile but this will eventually be encrypted.

Regional is already testing encryption which I am told is not that far away

Given the amount of problem with the current Motorola contract and the MMR network as soon as the MMR contract is up it will be scrapped in favor of a new provider with better radio's and a lot more flexibility the officers that I spoke to told me that the current Motorola MMR system is a joke & is not favored by a majority of senior member because of it's inflexibility to grow and change so stay tuned I guess whilst I wasn't told a time frame apparently it's closer than we might like to think.

[Pumper_50]

Some good info there.

The long term plan is to expand on the RMR Network and have Regional VicPol and other regional entities migrate over to it. DoJ has been moving towards this as the long term goal for a little while now for Regional ops.

MMR (UHF) for metro and RMR (VHF) for rural. Probably in part why the two systems base offsets etc are identical and they share the same SysID. They've done that for good reason.

Any new radios they will want them to not only be able to do MMR (UHF) and VHF (existing) in the short term like you suggest but be able to be migrated over to the RMR (VHF) in the long term I suspect.

You may find that the existing VHF Police Voting network frequencies will eventually be migrated over to the RMR Network, much the same way they did with the old MFB and VicPol UHF frequencies for the MMR Network.

What amount of problems with the MMR Network? It has not only met but exceeded it's requirements in 'up time'? It has done so consistently. Or are you specifically referring to the 'contract' arrangements by that comment? You have to wonder why they signed on then for another 4 years then in 2012 with a further 4 year option after that.

It is also capable of expansion. Do they mean site wise? Either way what's suitable for Metro areas doesn't mean it's suitable for Regional areas. Hence VHF and UHF systems and what will eventually be two system operating as one.

They've also just installed new hub gear in all sites. GTR8000 and they're soooo sexy. and big $$$$
All sites are now Phase 2 capable. Making way for the next generation of Police radios perhaps? I believe all bikes, vehicles, etc will be dual band eventually.

This will in part be in response to the Black Saturday findings where serious concerns were raised about VicPol sending Metropolitan based Officers to Rural areas with no idea how to work the VHF/SMR radios in the regional based cars and metro based Police vehicles having only MMR (UHF) radios fitted so no access to VHF comms other than a VHF portable.

Minimising radio types used & dual band radios will help eliminate that issue.

By the way how do you 'scrap' a contract that is expired? Do you mean they won't be taking them up on the other four year option? As much as they may wish others will be making the decision on that.

Blue Tooth is a very handy kit and a long time coming. I think there was actually a Solo using one around St.Kilda a few days ago.

BTW I strongly suspect that two other Government entities who have upgraded their radios recently (not CFA) have done so with a view of migration to another network in the long term. The new radios they've selected allow operation on their existing systems, but also lend themselves to operation on RMR also some text I've read tends to support that view.

A recent publication by a Government entity states the following in regards to State Capacity and Capability;

*Establish a Regional Mobile Radio (RMR) network that provides a command channel on a digital network and improves communications irrespective of geographic location for CFA, MFB, VicSES and LSV.

*Develop a business case to extend RMR capability to VicPol, DEPI, and AV

Thanks for sharing your findings and information.

[turbine_prop]

No problems happy to contribute where I can

What amount of problems with the MMR Network?
So I was told by several officers the system ( Contact is very rigid in the amout of radios that it can handle / have so there is a freeze on more radios across the network including no more new vehicles on top of what they currentky have, like wise no more " Spare " H/H's.

A number of the officers were also critical of the audio on a regular basis and none of them had ANY time for or any thing good to say about Motorola.

It was made quiet clear that at the next contract renewal a very string representation to the next government will be being made for a new provider be it this or the other mob.

I just had a look at and a read about the new H/W hhmm yet the state government cries poor I guess that's where all the " Quote " Road Safety " Revenue " goes.

So one has to ask the question & yes I know it is an age old question that has been asked sine MMR rolled out BUT as technology improves and gets smarter and dare I say cheaper is the writing on the wall for scanning as we know it getting darker and more prominent ?.

You have only got to look at the ACT and dare I say it I have just read about QLD where scanning is done and dusted.

The really big question is why are we so paranoid here in this country when much bigger countries with much more money and many more peoplecwho are a much bigger target not going the way that we the tiny lityle Aust with 22 odd million people doing.

[Bass Junkie]

Interesting little outage tonight on both VicPol VHF and CFA RMR - there was an announcement on all channels that comms will be going down due to "an upgrade to the MMR system". Same phrasing used by both VicPol and CFA, might be relevant to this discussion.

[ymmlman]

Fairly certain the limit on the number of vehicle and hand/held radios you mention, will be an Agency restriction, not a technology/network restriction.

Im pretty sure there are a much larger number of radios possible (from another post on RR I think?).

Edit: Found a reference to Motorola ASTRO Release 6 supporting 64,000 radios, so its at least that

[Pumper_50]

So first they say this (see bold highlight and underline);

Given the amount of problem with the current Motorola contract and the MMR network as soon as the MMR contract is up it will be scrapped in favor of a new provider with better radio's and a lot more flexibility the officers that I spoke to told me that the current Motorola MMR system is a joke & is not favored by a majority of senior member because of it's inflexibility to grow and change so stay tuned I guess whilst I wasn't told a time frame apparently it's closer than we might like to think.

Then in the next breath they said this (see bold highlight and underline);

It was made quiet clear that at the next contract renewal a very string representation to the next government will be being made for a new provider be it this or the other mob.

They're saying Motorola is done in one breath and the contract will not be renewed. In the next they said they might stay with the 'Big M'. Did they actually know what they were talking about?

Fairly certain the limit on the number of vehicle and hand/held radios you mention, will be an Agency restriction, not a technology/network restriction.

Im pretty sure there are a much larger number of radios possible (from another post on RR I think?).

Edit: Found a reference to Motorola ASTRO Release 6 supporting 64,000 radios, so its at least that

All current services combined have far far far far far less radios than that on the MMR Network.

[vkcpolice]

Encrytion is sadly comming. In my hounest opinion if they had nothing to hide then why use encryption I think there is more to it than the police being worried about criminals using scanners to there advantage. Encryption brings victorians grave concerns about police going out and about doing there activities without the public or media having any idea what there up to.
this was the same case when metro went digital. And correct me if im wrong but arnt albury police digital and unencrypted?
do they have different laws in nsw? Labor has anounced 10.1 million dollars to be spent to upgrade regional victorias radio system but I thought thats what the RMR was for?

[peteramjet]

Encryption brings victorians grave concerns about police going out and about doing there activities without the public or media having any idea what there up to.

I didn't realise the police in regional Victoria drove invisible cars and had no interaction with the public...

The public sees everyday - with their own eyes - what the police and emergency services are up to. A very, very small number of scanner enthusiasts loosing the ability to listen to emergency service radio broadcasts won't change that.

[vkcpolice]

You need to look at the bigger picture mate.

[peteramjet]

You need to look at the bigger picture mate.

Could you explain what the bigger picture is? My view of the 'bigger picture' is providing safe and secure comms for those emergency services that need it. Unfortunately for those of us in the scanning community, that means encryption in most cases.

The cops have been encrypted in all major cities in Australia for some time, be it in NSW, QLD, SA, WA, NT, ACT or VIC (plus some parts of TAS). The assertion that the public won't know what the police do because a small number of people can't listen on a scanner never eventuated in any of those places, and it won't happen in regional Victoria either. The truth is that with the raise of social media (that provides instant publication of incidents to massive amounts of people), the almost 24-hour news cycle and almost every person carrying a mobile phone with a video camera the cops and other emergency services are far, far more accountable now than they ever have been in the past.

[vkcpolice]

Encyption opens ups a huge opportunity for police corruption. I dont see how you can turn a blind eye to this your either a cop or live in an area where there is no Encyption. Think about it do you really want the police walking out and about and not having a clue what there up to. I do admit it is a very debatable subject. Yes they may need to do certain operations like raids ect. In private talk groups but everyday operations like rego checks noisy partys welfair checks I just dont see the need for encryption. For example say a police officer abuses there power the public nor media would not know about it. Like I said this is my opinion each to there own.

[michael]

For example say a police officer abuses there power the public nor media would not know about it. Like I said this is my opinion each to there own.

In trying to understand your point of view on the subject, what abuse of power would they be trying to cover up with digital/encrypted radio?

It can go either way really..

Going digital/encrypted will prevent people from eavesdropping and associated activities-
- Turning up at events as they are unfolding (like towies back in the day before allocations)
- Committing thefts in uncovered areas (knowing where the police are)
- Act of terrorism against police (a long stretch I know, but we are on "high" alert)
- Unauthorised access to communications (like carrier dropping, music, impersonation)
- Abuse of personal contact, vehicle and other private details (speaks for itself)

On the other hand you have-
- Not having the public knowing what to 'keep a lookout for' to tip them off as it is unfolding
- Streamline the communications with other emergency services

There is a stack of reasons to go both ways... if you really think about it.... abuse from police in terms of communications is nothing that the general public cannot achieve on the analogue network anyway for reasons outlined above.

Some would feel much more 'safer' knowing that the only people who have access to their details are police, corrupt they may be but finding the source of information when only a selected group of individuals have access to it isn't really that hard as it is logged against each inquiry (from what I understand). I am 50/50 on this subject.

As a scanner enthusiast it will be a loss, but times are changing.

Cheers

[turbine_prop]

If I hear Terrorism used one more time as a valid reason to go encrypted i'll scream seriously law enforcement is riding on the back of Terrorism in this country any thing that any local, state or federal government wants they only have to even loosely mention or remotely tie it to Terrorism and presto they have what ever it is that they want, ask your self this question why is just about the entire U.S. in the clear and yet they are the biggest target for terrorism and crime in the world, they have the most money, the most powerful president in the world, the most law enforcement agencies in the world and the most technology and money in the world but they are still in the clear.........WHY ?.

why are we so different ?.

Scanning in the U.S. is a national past time it's like guns if they even tried to use encryption in the U.S. there would be a revaluation.

Lets just say on the VHF network I've heard some very interesting descriptions of people and events imagine whats being said on the MMR network.

Regards
Turbine_prop
Melbourne

[Bass Junkie]

Having full encrypted comms across the board with the new whistle-blowing legislation is a recipe for disaster. Bye bye civil liberties. Of course no-one will make any noise about it, and even if they do it will fall on deaf ears.

[fire_rescue]

I'm actually glad in one way police here are going digital. You got crime watch pages that are posting every detail about jobs and persons which in some cases can lead to vigilantes in those areas . I can understand police and ambulance going encryption but unsure on fire service needing encryption

[blacktown]

Scanning in the U.S. is a national past time it's like guns if they even tried to use encryption in the U.S. there would be a revaluation

You obviously are unaware of this page that lists the US Police Departments that run encryption on all transmissions. The list is growing all the time. Most Police forces want encryption but finding the money from the "City Hall" budget is the main issue for radios, repeaters, backlinks etc. Many cities are deeply in the red, which is the main reason large forces like LAPD have yet to encrypt their 10,000 radios.

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.ph ... d_Agencies

[ymmlman]

Encyption opens ups a huge opportunity for police corruption.

Having full encrypted comms across the board with the new whistle-blowing legislation is a recipe for disaster. Bye bye civil liberties. Of course no-one will make any noise about it, and even if they do it will fall on deaf ears.

I don't know which part of fairy land you both might be living in, but it's a huge jump to state that once encryption comes on to a network, all of it's users are going to have a field day doing "corrupt" things.

A few things.

For starters, any corruption would have to involve all Police members on the entire channel, as they will still all be able to hear each other. So should some "corrupt" officer decide he's going to plan his "corrupt" actions, of course the first thing he is going to is announce to all other officers on his brand spanking new encrypted channel his intentions.

Secondly, all the dispatch comms are controlled by ESTA as part of the Department of Justice. So when officer Plod heads off on his corruption spree, he will inform the Department of Justice as well.

Thirdly, pretty sure all radio and phone conversations on the dispatch channels are recorded, as i'm pretty sure recordings of dispatch radio comms have been used in court and coroners cases (especially for pursuits). So the rampant corruption will most likely be neatly recorded for prosperity.

Finally, if this was the case as you have presented it, all of the metro area under the coverage of MMR should have descended into anarchy by now.

There will always be bad eggs in any organisation, they existed before encryption, and I have no doubt they still exist after encryption. But did they turn bad because of encryption? I doubt that very much.

You might need to lay off the Ribena a bit, it's causing just a little bit too much excitement from the sugar overload. The ability of Police, Fire and Ambulance to have radio comms without some idiot using a radio from eBay and software from Russia wiping it out, will always have priority over the ability for someone else to monitor. Should the Police decide to encrypt their's, good luck to them. CFA are moving towards providing listening sets to allow those who currently have them, to still have that ability.

[Bass Junkie]

It's not to say that corruption will happen, but that it will be made easier. Encryption coupled with whistle blowing laws means that it doesn't matter if all the cops are listening to the channel if corruption comes from the top down. It means that the media will only be told about things those in charge want them to know about, and only when they want them to know about it.

In terms of preventing unauthorised access to the network, there is no difference between P25 trunked encrypted vs unencrypted. Have you ever heard an unauthorised user on the NSW GRN, Vic MMR, etc? The radios can be stunned instantly if they make themselves known as being affiliated.

All encryption does is lock out the public and the media, and the only people left on the network are the police and the criminals who have the cash to spend on stolen radios/keys. Encryption isn't impossible to break, it isn't even difficult to break, it's just expensive to break. (It's expensive to implement too, I'd rather my tax $ spent on something other than encrypting public communications.)

Also, encryption does nothing to protect against super simple denial of service attacks.

[NakedFaerie]

Encrytion is sadly comming. In my hounest opinion if they had nothing to hide then why use encryption I think there is more to it than the police being worried about criminals using scanners to there advantage. Encryption brings victorians grave concerns about police going out and about doing there activities without the public or media having any idea what there up to.
this was the same case when metro went digital. And correct me if im wrong but arnt albury police digital and unencrypted?
do they have different laws in nsw? Labor has anounced 10.1 million dollars to be spent to upgrade regional victorias radio system but I thought thats what the RMR was for?

thats 1 thing I didn't like and some people wont like with the encryption. When there is a call for a missing person nobody can hear so we cant go out and help look.
When it was analog and I was sitting at home doing nothing if I heard a missing person call I would go out and help look.
Now I read on twitter someone went missing yesterday then a week later they are still missing. Well those first few hours could be the life or death call. If we could hear them we could help and save lives. The way it is now we are just spectators and we cant help anymore.

Their loss. Encryption is stupid. Digital is ok but encryption? What are they trying to hide? If there was an emergency we just listen to ambos or fire brigade as they will go to the same place as the cops, but it would be nice to hear whats going on from the cops instead of 3rd party or someone else.

[vkcpolice]

i totally agree i have spoken to many police officers in Melbourne about the encryption and they say we just dont want the public to hear all the horrible things that go on. yeah right if they dont want to hear it dont listen to it or have a scanner. my main concern is bushfires as in black Saturday i really relied on the police radio for the lasted info. now i know most people would say go listen to vic fire but the police always seem to have more control over the situation and road blocks ect. than the cfa. also i hear stabbings and all sorts of bad stuff on the metro ambulance channel personal info about patients. like i said i love conspiracy and i do believe that encryption is a part of the new world order. if they had nothing to hide then why hide it. i can understand when they are doing raids ect. then yeah go use encryption but for everyday stuff like noise complaints or burgs ect. i dont believe encryption is helping. also i still here so many officers complain about how bad the digital system is and the coverage. if you look at the mmr sites you will notice there is one about every 5km and 1 about every 300 meters in the cbd. i have heard that rural police are holding off for now because they simply dont have the coverage. as soon as i walk into a brick building my rmr drops right off and i am forced to drop back to the analogue vic fire dispatch channel.